[00:05:20] Host: I know you touched on it a little bit, but explain these concepts of Houses and how a House is created.

[00:05:31] Smith: This is the best way I can explain it. Just say, for instance, now, you have a lot of people that came up when I started back in 2004. You have a lot of people that start in their own Houses. You can start your own House. You can create. You can take a name and you can create your own House, and then you build from there. Like, step, I want to create a House, and I'm like, "Dang, I want to do my own thing. Let me see. Who else can I bring with me that can help me?" Usually, you'll go to other people that basically got clout or power in the scene where y'all can build it together. I feel like building a House is really big, built by influence.

You're going to go with someone that-- say, for instance, let me see who's really, really popular right now. Well, they all started their own house. For instance, this guy named Deshaun. He's an iconic commentator, iconic voguer, whatever. He's an icon, and he's like the king of vogue. When he started his own House called The House of Basquiat, a lot of people followed him. I feel like a House is built off of influence, but it's also, you got to get people in there that can lure people into your house. Then also, a house is built off of love, people want to come and they want to be a part of a family.

[00:07:01] Host: With all of this ballroom culture, there's a strong connection to high fashion from this concept of a catwalk to names of performers, Gorgeous Gucci, and the names of Houses too. How did fashion find its way, or what was the connection between ballroom and fashion in the first place?

[00:07:29] Smith: Well, see, it goes back to being a part of the pageants and being a drag queen and being a transgender. They want to look glamorous. In a ball, when you're getting ready for a ball, that's the first thing I feel like came to ballroom, is fashion. You want to come. You want to look your best. You want to have your Gucci on, you want to have your Chanel on, and you want to look fabulous. I just really feel like ballroom is based off of fashion, and I feel like that's what lure people over there too because you want to come, you want to feel fabulous.

[00:08:06] Host: Even the moves, the voguing moves, they are inspired by poses of models as well, correct?

[00:08:13] Smith: Yes. I was going to say that as far as voguing too. Let's even say runway. Runway, the category. Runway, you got to get out there. You got to walk runway. You got to walk like a model, you know what I mean, just with a little twist, with a little bump into it. When you do come and walk runway, your effect better be on point. You have to be on point. You have to.

The fashion, everything up is esthetics. It got to look great. A lot of people watch these runway shows and they get ideas. You could come and see something on a Moncler runway when they're doing a runway show, and you'll be like, "All right, well, I want you to bring in Moncler," da, da, da, and you got to look it up, and you got to put it together with your own little twist.

[00:09:01] Host: Do you see that there is reciprocity where the fashion world is starting to, as the popularity of Ballroom and voguing grows, that this high fashion world is starting to embrace some of the moves created in the Ballroom scene?

[00:09:19] Smith: Yes. See. Everybody is looking at the Ballroom scene and taking from the Ballroom scene, from Beyoncé, from everybody, all the celebrities like Madonna. She's like the original. Who else? Paula Abdul. Who else? Taylor Swift. Everybody is taking from Ballroom. They're learning everything from us, so yes.

[00:09:48] Host: I also noticed just in-- This is all new to me, but there's a strong connection to hip-hop music and dance music. Every one of these Balls, there's always a DJ and an MC.

[00:10:04] Smith: Yes. The thing is the Ball is not going to happen without the commentator, which is the MC or the host, or the DJ. I say this all the time, that's why you need to respect the commentator and the DJ. I just did a Ball this weekend and it was just so much going on. It was chaotic, but I pulled it together. I was on the mic with this other commentator and the host of the Ball. It was just so much chaos going on because they were stressed out, and I had to wheel it back in like, "No, y'all just calm down, breathe. Let's get this through. Let's get through this thing."

You always got to have that type of person, that type of MC, and that type of host just to make sure the balls run good. The MC is important for things like that and just keeping-- because when you're a commentator and everything, a host, you got to keep the audience intact, the judges, everybody. You got to entertain. You got to have that specialty. Being a commentator and being an MC, you have to be special, and either you got it or you don't.

The DJ, I give it up to them because they know when to stop the beat. They got to know when to start the beat. They got to know what beat to play. They got to know. If they play a beat and nobody likes it, I'm like, "Kill the DJ." [laughter] There's stuff like that. It's a lot, but yes, definitely a ball cannot happen without a DJ or an MC. That's the most important part of the ball.

[00:11:36] Host: Right. You're essentially dancing, so you need to have that rhythm driving you, inspiring you to hit those moves.

[00:11:44] Smith: Yes, and then what's so beautiful too about it is that even with me, I just make sure that I build a great relationship with the DJs that I work with. Mostly all the DJs, they've been working with me for years, so they know exactly what I want, how I want it, and everything. We know how to eye each other and they know what to do. That's another thing. I love working with DJs that know what the hell they are doing. Excuse my language, but yes.

[00:12:12] Host: No, I love it. Language is a part of this, right?

[00:12:17] Smith: Yes.

[00:12:17] Host: In clips that I've seen, language definitely gets a little vulgar from the commentators, like the word “pussy” is used a lot.

[00:12:31] Smith: Oh, yes, pussy, I probably say, "Pussy," more than—at a ball, maybe a million times by now [laughter] in 20 years I've been commentating. 21, kind of. Yes, 21, 20, whatever, I done said “pussy” probably a million times. Maybe a billion, [laughter] and F word, cunt. I have to tell people because now, usually, like I said, back in the day, it used to be nothing but Black people, African American people, and Latino at balls and stuff. Now, it's everybody. It's Asian, White. It's everybody.

Well, Hispanic was around too, but it's so many different variety of people, and it's a lot of spectators that come to balls because of Pose and because of Legendary. They want to get that ballroom experience, so I have to tell them before the ball, like, "Hey, I'm going to say, 'Cunt.' That does not mean that." Cunt is just an expression of being just feminine and just dainty."

[00:13:35] Host: You mentioned Pose and Legendary. Pose and Legendary, these two shows that really thrust this scene into the mainstream. Talk about how that popularity changed the scene of ballroom, if at all.

[00:13:51] Smith: It changed a lot. I was just now talking to a younger person in the ballroom scene. I was just telling them because they were telling me. They was like, "You are like one of the only icons that really talk to the new kids and come around us and everything and all that and you don't be judging us," because a lot of the older people, they're like, "Oh, the new generation, they're disrespectful," and da, da, da. It's like sometimes you just got to get with the new way.

Right now, the new way is like these kids, they want to be famous. You can get famous off of Ballroom now. You can go and be on tour with Beyoncé. You can get on TikTok and become a famous voguer and stuff. They have all these platforms now for that and things. That's great, and that's good, but I'm from the old school. I used to vogue for a fucking trophy. I used to battle for a trophy. Money changed the ballroom scene. Money, I would say, changed it first, especially now that they're giving out $20,000 for categories and $10,000. You can make really good money off of Ballroom if you're consistent.

The thing is that I feel like with the shows and all that stuff, everybody wants to be famous, and they want things quickly now. Nobody wants to work to become a legend in 10 years, they want it in 3 years. Nobody don't want to work to become an icon in 20 years, they want it in fucking 8 years. That's the only thing I will say. Then people don't love the art of Ballroom anymore. They love the art of becoming famous. Some people, you could tell when they come, they just want clout off the Ballroom scene.

You could tell the people that really want it, and it's natural to them because Ballroom is not something that's taught. It's in you already. You just got to nurture it and let it grow.

[00:15:39] Host: I took your workshop. I was sore for a week. You definitely have to be a dancer to do that. We studied, we did a little catwalking and voguing, and duckwalking. You have to have some kind of athleticism and some understanding of rhythm to be able to be successful at this, correct?

[00:16:03] Smith: Yes. You just got to know how to get out there and do it. Believe it or not, a lot of dancers that are professional dancers, they cannot get voguing. It doesn't look right. Like I said, it's something that has to be naturally in you. I know a lot of people that are not dancers, they just know how to vogue. I tell them, "You are a dancer, voguing is dancing." It's dancing. It's a form of dance. You definitely need to know what you're doing, and you definitely need to have that dancer in you. A lot of these people don't know they have that dancer in them until they see it, and then they start doing voguing, and they become good at it.

[00:16:47] Host: Now it's time to talk about your journey. I'd love for you to tell us about your path to become the King of the West Coast. Where did you get introduced to Ballroom?

[00:17:02] Smith: Okay. Well, February 2nd, 1996, I went to a foster home. I was taken away from my mom and my auntie and my grandma. Got put in the system. My grandma ended up dying, so she couldn't get us back, and then my auntie was trying to get us back, but she ended up dying. My grandma died in '96 and then my auntie died in '97. They couldn't get us back. They was the only ones that had clean records in my family and all that stuff.

My mom, she was a user. When I was at school, this dude fell on my leg, and he hurt my leg really bad, so my mom came through the school, but she came up to the school high, and they called the system on us. That's how we ended up getting taken away. They took me to two placements in LA. I was bad as hell. Me and my big brother, we were bad, but I was the bad one. I was bad. You couldn't tell me what to do. "You're not my mama." Bad.

I was so bad, they ended up splitting me and my brother up. They took me to a group home, and my brother went to a middle-class family. That whole time I was in a group home. I got kicked out of there. I got kicked out of another group home. I went to three mental institutions. I was in 14 different placements. Crazy, right? The second-to-last foster home I went to, they put me in dance because they was like, "You're bad. What do you want to do?" I was like, "I want to dance." I was like, "Yes, I want to dance. I want to be like TLC and all of those people, Aaliyah. I want to be like Aaliyah, all that." They put me in dance, and that saved my life. That saved my life. I did that. That foster home didn't work out. I went to my last one, this lady named Susan. She told me, she was like, "You're a superstar." She was like, "You're going to be famous." She was like, "What do you want to do? You want to go to singing class?" She put on singing lessons, all that stuff. She put me in all the art stuff that she could put me in. She paid for everything. I ended up emancipating.

Before I emancipated, my friends used to sneak down to LA, and they'll go to a club in LA, sneak in the club. They'll come back, and they'll be voguing, and I'm like, "What are y'all doing? What the hell is that? Y'all look stupid." I hated it. When I ended up emancipating, I moved from Lancaster back to LA, whatever, I start seeing it, and I was like, "Ooh, I might want to do it," and this guy named Brandon, he'd seen me and he was like, "Oh, y'all should be in the House."

He came up to me and my friends. He was like, "Ya'll need to be in the House, this House of Omni, I'm a father," da, da, da, da. I got in the House, and I went to a bar, and I was like, "This is what I want to do."

[00:20:00] Host: This is it.

[00:20:01] Smith: I want to do it. I was voguing. I was getting chopped. At a bar, you get chopped. When you come out, you got to come out and do your little one, two. Whatever you're going to do, present yourself, and the judge got to give you 10. Every judge got to give you 10. If one judge says it's a chop, you can't get through and advance to the next round. I walked and started doing my big one. Like I said, I was getting chopped. I would say the first year, I was getting chopped. Then one night, I was like, "Fuck that. I want to do my thing," and I did, so I became Enyce the voguer. I did that '04, '05, and then '06, I start commentating.

I started commentating because we used to have mini Balls. It's big Ball, which is the big, big ones, and then we have mini Balls, which is a smaller version of a big Ball. We used to have play mini Balls in the living room. We used to put the table, make a little judge’s panel, and we used to have a Ball in the living room. They don't do that anymore. They need to start doing that again. We used to have fun. Great practice. I just started commentating one day, and they was like, "You need to commentate. You need to commentate."

This lady named Ebony Lane, she used to have a mini Ball every week after the club, so I used to go to the commentator at the time, Joe. I was like, "Let me just do one round. Let me do one round. Let me do one round." He'll let me commentate and Ebony Lane heard me. Ebony Lane was like, "You're my commentator now." She was like, "Every week." With the Ballroom thing, we have award Balls every year. I got my, of the year, for commentating and I started charging $50. I remember that. I thought I was the shit. I was like, "I need $50."

I did that, and then I got of the year again. I charged $75. Got of the year again, I went up to $150. [laughs] I thought I was really doing something big, but I was. Then the year after that, this guy named Jacky, he's the king of Ballroom. He's actually my House father. He's one of the founders of the House of Gorgeous Gucci. He's somebody that I look up to and respect so much. Then he tells me, "You charge $150. No, you need to charge $500," so I started charging $500, and then it went up to $1,500. Anyway, that's how I became the commentator, and I took over. I just took over.

I blew up, but I was also voguing, so I used to commentate and my category would come up, I would give the mic to somebody, "Buddy, just commentate the voguing thing." I'd go change, won my category, get a win, and that's when money start coming around. Win the money and then get back on the mic. Then I would say by 2012, they was like, "This is a conflict of interest. You need to pick one." I was like, "Oh, I'm guaranteed--" No, it was 2013. I said, "I'm going to pick the guaranteed money." I'm going to just do [crosstalk].

[00:22:56] Host: Commentating.

[00:22:57] Smith: Yes, but I was really big as a voguer too. I was one of the popular voguers, going out of the state, walking, doing my thing, but commentating is basically my first love.

[00:23:09] Host: How did you enter into The House of AWT? Tell us a little bit of The House of AWT.

[00:23:16] Smith: Okay. Well, I'm not a part of The House of AWT. The only Houses I've been in, I was at Omni. Then that House closed down. I went to Chanel, and I went to Ebony, back to Chanel, and then I was at 007 for a very long time, and then I went to Gorgeous Gucci. Within these Houses from Chanel to Gorgeous Gucci, my mother is Divine, that's one of the people that raised me, in the Houses that she's mother of. I got into my rebellious stage where I was like, "I don't need you. Fuck everybody. I'm the shit."

I can say that and just do my own thing, and she let me do my own thing, but I eventually came back with her. I'm in Gorgeous Gucci with her. I'm not in The House of AWT, but Icon Sean Milan, that's a house that he created on his own. He’s actually a garcon, but it's more of an organization type thing of Ballroom kids and all that stuff. He put on a Ball under the name The House of AWT. You know what I mean, so like The House of AWT--

[00:24:24] Host: Not a technical house for competition, but more of an organization to support the mission.

[00:24:30] Smith: Yes. People of the arts to give funding to people that-- if you want to do a video, filming studio, or if you need the studio space, maybe they can help you with that.

[00:24:43] Host: I'd for love you to define a few terms. What's the difference between “old way” and “new way?”

[00:24:52] Smith: Old way is a style of vogue where it's just like how they used to vogue back in the day, back in the '80s and all that stuff. They used to have a certain vogue where everything is like a line. The new way is more of stretching, putting your leg up, doing the splits, bending your back, and doing all of that stuff. That's the difference between that. [laughs]

[00:25:18] Host: A little more angular--

[00:25:19] Smith: Yes.

[00:25:20] Host: The old way and then a little more free.

[00:25:21] Smith: The old way is more of poses, more of lines. New way is to stretch and moves to stretch. Can I put my leg behind my back? [laughter] There are people out there, and I'm watching right now.

[00:25:31] Host: That's all right. [chuckles] Help us define “realness.”

[00:25:36] Smith: Realness? Okay. Realness is basically, simply, can you get it on them? We have a word called “clock.” If you get clocked, that means, oh, I could tell what you were biologically born as. That goes for the transgender. Transgenders walk, they're walking to see if you can get it on them. When I say get it on them, can you see if they're biologically a man or like to say trans man walk, whatever-- trans woman, sorry. You could tell if they was biologically a man. Then trans men, if they're walking, you can tell they was biologically a woman.

Now, they have a thing called “thug realness.” Thug realness, you come out and you're looking all scary and hard. Can I tell if you're gay or do I think you're straight? They have “schoolboy realness.” That's the same thing. It's like we're at school and I look at you, can I tell you're gay? The point of walking realness is to not get clocked. If I think you're clocky, it's a chop. I don't see it. You look gay as hell, or "I don't see it, girl. I could tell you was born a man." [laughs] Just think about it, realness is a really brutal category. No shade.

[00:26:51] Host: They're competing in it, right? That's all a part of it.

[00:26:53] Smith: Yes. It's just-- I'm going to tell you as a commentator, when realness come up, I'll be nervous as hell because the way they all be talking about each other because especially the transgenders, they're like, "Oh, my gosh, her back is big. Look at those big old hands. I wear size 8-- I mean, I'm 6 and you wear size 13, bitch. Oh, my God, look at the nose. Their chin, baby boy." The judges be like, "What? Who do you want?" "No makeup, no makeup, no nothing. Look at this back. It's small, I think."

[laughter]

[00:27:25] Host: All right. The most important definition, what is an icon.

[00:27:32] Smith: An Icon. Well, I'mma say what icon means to me. I'mma give you a definition. I'm going to say what it means to me. An icon is someone that completed the job. You completed your mission. When you become legend, you become legend in 10 years. You become icon in 15 to 20 years. After you become legend, what have you done to be a legend? You got to do more. To become an icon, you have to do a lot of community work. You got to give back. Like me, I just was talking to my friend yesterday, I was like, "People don't even know that I have got so many people into treatment with HIV."

I have gotten over at least, I'mma say about maybe about at least 40 people into treatment, getting people tested, making sure they know their status, helping people with housing. I just helped my friend with housing the other day. Just gave one of my friends, not too long, some money to get a motel because they didn't have nowhere to go. Sent my friends money to get stuff to eat. Show up and do these free vogue classes. Go to these different colleges and talk about ballroom.

Look, what I'm doing right now. This is community. You know what I mean? I'm chatting with-- to do the vogue class. That's community. That's an icon to me, giving back and being an example and leading people to greatness. I think that's what an icon is.

[00:29:09] Host: We'd like to thank Enyce Smith. If you would like to continue the conversation, visit chapman.edu/wilkinson to learn more. To access recommended books from our guests for further learning, and for more socially conscious content, visit us at pastforward.org or follow us at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you podcast.