[00:04:45] Host: Now, what would you say is the role of a librarian, and how has that changed, in, say, over the time from when you used to go as a young person to now?

[00:04:58] Skye: Well, I think one of the bigger changes that I see with the profession is that at the time that I went to the public library as a young person, the librarian's job was really to point to books, direct you to your area of interest. That was really his or her role, at least in the public library. I would argue that it was a bit different in academized libraries, academic libraries.

I think today the-- I think our responsibility has changed, in that there's such an influx of information coming from all these different places, that I do think we have a space and opportunity to peel back the layers and help young people understand what's real and what isn't by way of, more traditionally known as reference work, but a little looser than that today, more conversational, because there's so much disinformation out there, and even we, as professionals, have difficulties trying to keep up with the amount of information available.

I think that's one way that it's changed. I also think that because of the ever-present or the ubiquitous internet and social media and all of these different areas that you can find information, I think we've really had to do a pivot in some respects to showcase and advance some of the other work that we do. When you think of libraries, you think of books. Still our bread and butter, but I think, over the last couple of decades, we've started to really expose this other work that we do as social infrastructure.

You hear this term used a lot in modern libraries where we've gone from this concept where we're a storehouse for books to this concept that we are part of one's community and part of what is known by sociologists as social infrastructure that goes with spaces. We call them GLAMS, Galleries, Libraries, Arts, Museums, and Spaces. We've really transitioned how we interact and engage with our user base from everything from cooking classes to STEAM and STEM classes, to, of course, teaching people how to utilize technology, to having afterschool lunches and afterschool snacks and programs, to conversational English language classes, or other language classes.

There's just so many ways that the public library has shifted its focus from your traditional book to a focus of helping its community in whichever way they need assistance.

[00:08:10] Host: Yes, I think it's interesting. Even thinking about your earlier stories, there's no other place that a parent would feel comfortable sending their child, after school, than a library. Like, "Okay, well, I'm still at work until 6:00, so you leave school, then go to the library and do your homework." It was always-- it is another place of protection, of care, and of community.

In the strategic plan for LA County Library, you talk about these two ideas that I love. This transforming the role of library as a place and developing the library as a center for community engagement. Exactly what you're talking about. It really helped me open my eyes to the realities of what a library is and can be.

[00:09:02] Skye: I love that you've already started to expand. I was speaking to someone recently, just a few days ago, who loves the library, but he just didn't seem to know what happens currently at the library. That's just an opportunity for me to have these conversations with folks so that they're really clear on the ways in which we are part of their community and that their community is impacted by our services. It recalls for me, a lot of our libraries are in working-class areas. Not so much like West Hollywood. That's one model.

We have other libraries where you have multi-generational families. Sometimes English is their first language, sometimes it isn't, but you have this idea conceptually your child can be safe, learn, and even get a snack, and a program, and some homework support after school, generally you can say to your older child who might be in charge of your younger children, "Go to the library. I'm working till 6:00, or I'm working till 7:00. I'll pick you up."

The team at that location, they know the parents, they know the family, they know the aunties. They can have those real-time conversations about behavior issues, if there are any, or sometimes the kids will say to their favorite library staff, "Oh, I need to call my mom for X, Y, Z." Because that relationship has been built, there is that layer of trust there, that extra layer of trust at our public libraries.

I think we didn't really see that fully. I think we had an opportunity to relook at that during the pandemic. When everything was locked down, including parks, the libraries, the public libraries around the nation, not just ours, we did this swift pivot to everything online. All library cards online. We had access to all kinds of homework help and retooling for the new work environment. We did this huge shift where we got to show our communities that, once again, we were absolutely there at the right time doing the right thing.

[00:11:22] Host: There's also a level of support for adults as well. I know a lot of libraries offer assistance in putting together resumes for people seeking jobs. Even just giving a place for someone who's houseless to come and sit and stay out of the elements. Yes, now my mind is just spinning with all of the things that a library is and can be.

[music]

What was it that drew you into this field and to this career?

[00:11:56] Skye: Yes, that's a great question. Thank you for asking. I'll say to you, in full transparency, it was never my desire to become a librarian. I didn't know what I was going to become. I often tell the story that I wanted to be a truck driver when I was 5. You have to contextualize that because I grew up in Lansing, this little small industrial town. The way that I understood at that age to travel and see the world, again, myopic 5-year-old, was that you would get into an automobile and you would go places. I lived on a street that had big industrial trucks coming up and down it all the time. I thought those people went to all these fabulous places. Anyway, I digress.

I get asked this a lot and I've had to reflect on this statement or this understanding that I've been working in the library since I was in high school. Didn't even occur to me. I spent all that time as a young person going back and forth to my public library. Then when I got in college, or I'm sorry, when I got in high school, I did some volunteering in the high school library. In college, I worked at the library and the photo lab as a work-study. It just kept coming up for me. Just kept showing up in my life.

I've tried to leave the profession several times and I just keep coming back. I think, partially why I come back, and why I am continuing this work, is that I get to examine all of my interests within libraries. I know for certain, and I don't know that everyone can say this about their work, when I turn off, I was going to say when I come home, but I'm working from home right now. When I turn off, I know, for certain, the work that we've done has impacted the lives of other people in positive ways.

It could be simply, as you said, making sure we provide a place for that person who is unhoused to come in from the elements, or that the parent feels safe to keep their kids there until 6:00, until they can get off work. A lot of older adults, especially prior to the pandemic, would just come in because they wanted to have a conversation. Living with other adults or sometimes, often even by themselves, they didn't have that interaction with anyone but our staff, but our team members. I know, daily, that we are doing good things for other people, and that's what keeps me here.

[00:14:34] Host: Now, I'd love to talk a little bit about what your current role is as the Library Director of LA County Library and 85 libraries that you are -- that is insane. It's one of the largest public library systems in the nation.

[00:14:56] Skye: That's correct.

[00:14:57] Host: First of all, how do you do that? How? My mind is exploding just thinking about it.

[00:15:05] Skye: It's quite unbelievable. I will say that Los Angeles County is privileged enough to have two of the major public library systems in North America. There are four major ones, which would be New York Public, Toronto Public, Los Angeles County Library and Los Angeles City Library. When you think about mega libraries, there's only a couple of us, which is probably good. How do I do it? I'm sure you've heard the saying, how does one eat an elephant?

[00:15:40] Host: Right. One bite at a time.

[00:15:40] Skye: One bite at a time. That's how I do it. That, and the fact that I have an extraordinary team that I work with. I know everyone says it, but I genuinely mean it. I genuinely work with some of the best people I could ever ask to be in partnership with, because that's how I see leadership. I see it as a partnership. I don't necessarily see me in the ivory tower. I see us sitting around daily, often trying to figure out how to solve some of the big issues.

Because, as you've already alluded to, some of the biggest social issues end up at the door of the public library. That's how I do it. One bite at a time.

[music]

[00:16:23] Host: We live in Los Angeles, where we're in a fairly progressive community. Even so, has there been a push for books to be removed or banned from any of the county libraries?

[00:16:40] Skye: That's such an interesting question because my immediate answer would be no, but when I think about that a little more, that's not completely true. We are not currently experiencing some of these big ban-book movements that I think you hear in Texas, Florida, Tennessee, Michigan. We do have a faction of conservative users who don't necessarily agree with some of our material or our content. That is consistent across the nation since the onslaught of public libraries, since the beginning.

The idea that someone is in disagreement with your collection isn't new. What is new is this extraordinary focus and galvanization of these factions, towards book-banning and censorship. Libraries have been grappling with censorship from the beginning. What I will say, for our library system, we've had some challenges, some physical book challenges or questions. A couple of years ago, with the Dr. Seuss books as an example, when you're thinking about representation, and therefore people questioning why we would have this material or these books or something like that.

Yes, we've dealt with it on that level, but what we are experiencing here in Los Angeles County is resistance against a different kind of censorship, which has to do with certain programming that we've done. I can give you the example of Drag Queen Story Hour. I'm sure you've heard of it. A lot of libraries are presenting a program like this. A lot of communities are presenting a program like this, and there's some pretty significant resistance from that vantage point.

A book, right now, like All Boys Aren't Blue, we have not had any disagreement or request to remove that book. No one, to my knowledge, has stolen it off the shelf. We're not experiencing that. Now that I've said it, we probably will, but that's not really our issue. I think what we're trying to really just advocate is more of a global understanding of what's happening to these smaller libraries, to the libraries in the Bible Belt and in the Middle West, where they don't have the same progressive politics or support that we do here in California and specifically in Southern California.

We're trying to ensure that our profession feels supported. Maybe more importantly, the communities who look to us to provide this kind of information or access to information. I'm sure you heard back when gay marriage was the big issue of the moment, and I can't remember, a comedian said something to the effect of, "If you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay married." Right?

[00:19:58] Host: Right.

[00:19:59] Skye: It's the way I feel about books and information. If it's not something that is of interest to you, don't read it. There is someone who this is interesting to and even, possibly, lifesaving, particularly when you're dealing with young people who are trying to find their way, trying to find their identity and feel solid and safe in who they are. There are some of these books that are being banned that are for those young people.

[00:20:28] Host: I was just reading about how we are at the largest censorship, this is from the American Library Association, that we've seen in over 20 years.

[00:20:40] Skye: That's right.

[00:20:41] Host: Like you said, it doesn't necessarily affect here in Los Angeles, but what do you attribute this increase to? The conservative belief has always been there. That hasn't changed, but maybe the voice is getting louder or is there more content that is being produced that is appearing offensive to that group and that community?

[00:21:11] Skye: Well, I would be remiss not to remind, well, not to say in this conversation that I do think it’s politically charged. We're just in a significantly more polarized place, politically, than we have been historically. There's always been a push and pull, but I do think it has a lot to do with that.

Actually, before this interview, I went back to the ALA, American Libraries Association page, just to look at the history of books that have been banned or who have been challenged. It is generally in and around the same topics like you see, it has to do with sex, as an example. It has to do with religion or something that is disagreeable to a particular religion or spiritual belief. It has to do with these same sort of issues.

A decade or two ago, we weren't really talking about queer characters and queer identities and gender in the way that we are now, but it is consistent with whatever the topic is, is where the moment, where we had this opportunity to really push forward, uh, an inclusive environment. 15 years ago, it was, or 20 years ago, it was like Heather Has Two Mommies, as an example.

A few years before that, it was the Maus graphic novel that had to do with the Holocaust. Even before that, it was Catcher in the Rye or To Kill a Mockingbird, Bluest Eye, by Toni Morrison, The Color Purple, the list goes on and on. How I attribute this moment is, whatever that growth moment is for our society is where we see the friction. At this point in time, it's about representation, queer representation, LBGTQ representation, and or people of color. From that vantage point, it's not new for me, but it has galvanized to a point in a place that I've never seen before.

[00:23:22] Host: What do we lose as a society when these books are banned and these stories aren't able to be told? I'm fascinated, and a lot of my conversations touch on this, of art's role and literature's role to fill in the gaps where our lessons in school might skip over things. It just seems like these stories and the communities that these stories represent, losing that, we're losing a part of who we are.

[00:24:00] Skye: That's right. I think that you just said that beautifully. What are we losing in this conversation? What I'll say, lightly, is that we're losing a perspective. We're losing perspective. Take it as you will, but you are losing the ability to give voice and opportunity to groups who are marginalized. You are losing this idea of young people having access and support to these really tough conversations that's happening internally and with their friends. Heaven forbid if they rely upon their friends to be the answer.

I think you're losing the ability to think critically. I made somewhat of a joke about, if it's not for you, don't read it but sometimes you have to venture into a thought or ideology to decide that it's not for you. I think that's what we're losing. We're losing the ability to have a different perspective or to witness a different perspective, and we're losing the ability to have discourse, which is where I think the public library is perfectly positioned to do this kind of work.

We're losing the ability to think critically for ourselves because someone else has decided this should not be for anyone. Not just not for my kid, but not for anyone. I take issue with that.

[00:25:39] Host: Is there anything that would warrant censorship or banning from a book from an institution or a school or library? Is there anything, in your opinion, in your role, that you would see as, like, "Yes, I don't think that this book should be here"?

[00:25:58] Skye: That's a really great question. I'll be very honest with you. I, myself, as a professional, am evolving. When I came into senior leadership over a decade ago, I thought, "Oh, this book and this idea, this needs to go. that it doesn't reflect modern times." When you start picking and choosing what should be accessible is when you hit the slippery slope.

What we do, and I think I reflect most public libraries, whenever there's a challenge for a book, there's always a committee from all different areas of the library, who will sit, read, discuss the issues with the books, the material that's been brought forward. 9 times out of 10, in my experience, that book stays. I may not necessarily be comfortable as an individual, but that's not what equity, diversity, and inclusion really is. It's not about the individual, it's about the collective, making room for everyone.

There are several books I would never let my child read. I may not even read them, but that is my choice. There is somebody that that book is necessary for, even if it's to, as I said earlier, to read and decide, yes, that thought is not for me. They get to make that. The shorter answer is maybe, it depends. I think typically libraries do not censor in that manner.

I should say there is a process where there is this outright outdated scientific information that's part of the collection management of any library system where, obviously, we weed and get rid of books based on the physicalness of the book, whether or not it's in good condition.

Sometimes there's been a written revision, excuse me. We'll do that kind of weeding, but generally for content, we try to steer away from it unless it's just outright inaccurate.

[music]

[00:28:23] Host: I wanted to talk about that revision. Is there a correlation between book censorship and banning and the publishers who are editing the works of deceased authors like Roald Dahl? As a librarian, I'd be curious to see what your thoughts are on that, on changing these books that have been read for decades and fixing and tweaking those words to make them more accessible or less offensive.

[00:28:57] Skye: That's such a great question. Again, it comes back to this idea of it depends. When I think about Roald Dahl, my daughter reads Roald Dahl, I read Roald Dahl. I utilize Roald Dahl as a children's librarian, Dr. Seuss, all of these big authors that are your go-to. I would hope that publishers would spend the time to have the content reflect modernity.

I am at a crossroads though, because revision versus revisionism or revisionist history, I don't know what I feel about that. No one's asked me that question, so I'm going to need to sit with it. My immediate response is, it should not be changed because it reflects its time and there is a responsibility of the parent or educator to crosswalk that idea for modern time. I don't think that's the role of a librarian or any information specialist, but it is the responsibility of that educational ecosystem of the child or young person.

[00:30:17] Host: To help put it into context of why people thought that at that time or-

[00:30:22] Skye: That's right.

[00:30:23] Host: -and we don't say those things anymore. We don't call people that.

[00:30:31] Skye: It's a tough one. It's a tough one. There's a book, I'm not recalling the name of it right now, unfortunately, it's called something like The Black Sheep. It's about young children's book where there are all these white sheep who adopt the black sheep.

There were so many outcries about this book because of the nuance about black and white and adoption and all of these things, when I think the publisher had an opportunity to examine and maybe course correct. I think that would be the editor. In fact, not so much the publisher. I'm conflicted by it because I saw the overt racism that was in that book but does it make sense for a family who's trying to explain adoption to their kids? Maybe. Did it make my skin crawl? Absolutely. Is it still in our library? I believe so, yes, unless someone stole it.

[00:31:36] Host: Is there anything else you would like to share about your work or about your libraries?

[00:31:41] Skye: There's so many things I could talk to you about in our libraries but I will say, in terms of the ban-book, and I was trying to find who actually said this quote, and there's conflicting evidence, but something to the effect of every great library has something to offend someone. That's when you know you have a great collection.

[00:32:06] Host: Right.

[00:32:07] Skye: I agree with that, and it's complicated. There is a responsibility that we are navigating right now in terms of identity and diversity and inclusion and belonging. All of these things are being navigated. I would like to think that this time is just that moment before we hit the precipice and move into this place where everyone feels a little bit more comfortable, but not at the risk of exclusion. It's a balancing act, Jon. I don't know where we'll ultimately end up but what I do know is that public libraries are a place for everyone, and we work really hard to be accessible to everybody. Let us know how we're doing.

[music]

[00:33:04] Host: We want to thank Skye Patrick and LA County Libraries. For more information, visit lacountylibrary.org. Chapters Podcast was produced by Past Forward, and made possible with support from Chapman University and California Civil Liberties Public Education Program, a state-funded grant project of the California State Library. For more information, visit pastforward.org, chapman.edu, and library.ca.gov.