In this episode we connect with Benjamin Henwood, USC professor and co-author of the book Housing First. We discuss the forces that converged in the 1980s to create the modern homelessness crisis, including cuts to affordable housing under the Reagan administration, economic recession, a lot more people working and not enough jobs, the war on drugs, Vietnam veterans returning home without support, and the deinstitutionalization of people with serious mental illness. We explore why so many unhoused people refuse unsafe shelters, the difference between Housing First and stopgap solutions like tiny homes, and the chronic underfunding of Section 8, which only one in four eligible applicants will ever receive. We also examine the “musical chairs” reality of housing scarcity, the political choices about who we consider deserving of help, and how a small shift in government spending could actually solve the problem.
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Benjamin Henwood, PhD, LCSW is the Albert G. and Frances Lomas Feldman Professor of Social Policy and Health at the University of Southern California (USC). He directs the Center for Homelessness, Housing and Health Equity Research at the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social Work and also holds a secondary appointment as a professor in the USC Chan Division of Occupational Science and Occupational Therapy. Professor Henwood also serves as director for the Homelessness Policy Research Institute, a joint operation of USC Social Work and the USC Sol Price School of Public Policy.
Trained as a clinical social worker and researcher, Professor Henwood is an expert in health and housing services research whose work connects clinical interventions with social policy. He is a co-author of the book “Housing First,” published by Oxford University Press, and led the launch of the American Academy of Social Work and Social Welfare's Grand Challenge to End Homelessness.
Professor Henwood’s research has been supported by the National Institutes of Health (i.e., NIMH, NIDA, NIA), the National Science Foundation, the Conrad N. Hilton Foundation, the Patient Centered Research Outcomes Institute and Google.org. He has also served as the methodological lead for the Greater Los Angeles Homeless Count since 2017, which is the largest unsheltered count in the United States. Professor Henwood received his MSW in 2004 and PhD in 2011 from NYU’s Silver School of Social Work.
"I think most people would say we don't want homelessness. I think the rub is we sort of think we've decided that the people who end up homelessness really aren't worthy of that sort of same help and support that other people are."
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Engaging the World: Leading the Conversation on People and Communities in Motion traces why we move and what happens to the places we leave, cross, and settle. Episodes cover immigration and migration, the building and dismantling of neighborhoods, the use of public space, and the point where a shared idea becomes collective action.
In this series, we engage with activists, artists, authors, educators, and journalists to consider how people and communities respond to the cultural, environmental, political, and social forces that put them in motion, and how, through that movement, they transform the world around them.
Guest: Benjamin Henwood
Host: Jon-Barrett Ingels
Produced by Past Forward in partnership with Wilkinson College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences at Chapman University.
Date recorded: September 16, 2026
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Transcription
[00:00:00] Benjamin Henwood: The truth is, there isn't a solution for everyone. I mean, the way we're set up now, and some people, you know, equate it to, I have colleagues that talk about it being, you know, sort of a game of musical chairs. And you know that if there are only eight chairs and ten people, there are going to be two people, you know, without a place to sit. And of course, what that means is if there's not enough affordable housing and places for people to go, we're going to have the problem of homelessness. That's sort of like almost by definition. And so then it just becomes this issue of, as a society, do we want there to be enough housing for people or not? And if it's not there, it's not there. You can't, you know, no amount of treatment or tiny homes will make up for that.
[00:00:45] Host: Chapman University's Wilkinson College of Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences and Past Forward present Engaging the World: Leading the Conversation on People and Communities in Motion. In this series, we explore the forces that move people and communities and how that movement reshapes the places, cultures, and institutions around them. From immigration and displacement to public spaces, community building, and collective action, we examine what happens when people move across borders, through cities, and towards social change. We engage with journalists, authors, artists, activists, and educators to consider how people and communities respond to the social, political, cultural, and environmental forces that put them in motion, and how, through that movement, they transform the world around them.
In this episode, we connect with USC professor Benjamin Henwood, co-author of the book Housing First.
The homelessness epidemic is fairly recent in the history of our country. It's within our lifetime, within my lifetime. But for the younger generations, and for a lot of our listeners, this has been a constant in their lifetime. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about some of the factors that ballooned the unhoused population in the 80s when you and I were children.
"...you kind of had a lot more people looking for a lot fewer jobs and a lot less in terms of safety net and affordable housing becoming available. So that alone sort of helps explain why you would see this homelessness crisis emerge in the 80s and why it wasn't there before."
[00:02:14] Henwood: No, happy to. I think even just that idea that homelessness didn't always look like this is surprising to a lot of people. I think people think it's just endemic to our society. The truth was, it hasn't always looked like this. Not that I was fully aware as a kid, but I remember being, I must have been 10 years old around 1985, when a classmate of mine went out and was trying to get donations for blankets because people, he noticed, I lived on the East Coast, he noticed people were sleeping out on the sidewalks. This was sort of a new phenomenon at that time, and it seemed like it kind of came out of nowhere. That was interesting as a kid, remembering that, and I didn't sort of have the historical knowledge at the time. But having looked at this issue now in my professional life and looking a bit at the research, we realized a lot of things kind of coincided in the 1980s that really led to a homelessness crisis. So I don't want to make it sound like it is just one thing. But clearly, I think from my perspective, we made clear policy decisions to sort of dismantle a lot of our safety net, in particular, funding affordable housing in this country. When Ronald Reagan came into the office, a lot of the, at the federal level, a lot of the budgets were cut. And so we just kind of stopped funding affordable housing and cutting other safety nets at the same time. Also, that was the beginning of a pretty significant recession. And so we had inflation, we had high oil prices, we had an economic recession. So jobs were not easy to come by. And I have a colleague that's kind of looked at some of the other factors that have contributed to why people ended up on the streets. And part of it was caused by just the demographics, meaning that we had a lot of people coming of working age in the 1980s, because we had this whole baby boomer generation. And the latter half of that generation was coming of working age right at the same time. So even what I've said so far, you kind of had a lot more people looking for a lot fewer jobs and a lot less in terms of safety net and affordable housing becoming available. So that alone sort of helps explain why you would see this homelessness crisis emerge in the 80s and why it wasn't there before.
I mean, there were other factors too. I think you can look at, looking back, we look at the drug epidemic with crack cocaine that started around the same time. And it wasn't so much that people were using and therefore made bad decisions and ended up on the streets. Part of that was large segments of our population, there was a war on drugs. And so people were getting incarcerated. And of course, when that happens, you no longer qualify for public housing when you come out. So it's a little bit more complicated than saying, oh, there was a drug epidemic that drove it. But that clearly contributed to the issue as well. I know some people also talk about, you know, in our country, just this trend, well, really the deinstitutionalization of, you know, having people with serious mental illness be in state hospitals and a movement to like having those individuals live in the community. And you know, there's not really a direct relationship between that, because that really started in the 60s. And it was sort of uneven over time. But it is true, you saw more people with serious mental illness on the streets, you know, a disproportionate amount. And I think to some extent, yes, it is true, because we had less sort of hospital beds, state beds. But even that is a little bit more complicated in the sense that a lot of people left the hospitals, went back to, you know, their families, and the support that was supposed to be there sort of never arrived. And, you know, I think eventually, a lot of people were struggling and then would end up on the streets, and there wasn't those beds available.
[00:06:46] Host: So was there a correlation to the aftermath of the Vietnam War and having the veteran population boom, without support in place as well?
[00:06:58] Henwood: Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, that's kind of in part why, you know, it's hard to say it was one thing in particular, you know. And I think before that, you know, veterans homelessness was not as much of a recognized issue. But clearly, you had a lot of veterans coming home from Vietnam that wouldn't get the, you know, the services, particularly for trauma that they've experienced. And so, you know, they would end up on the streets, too.
[00:07:29] Host: So before this, what systems of support were in place? Like what was dismantled or altered or changed that kind of opened the door for this growth?
[00:07:43] Henwood: I mean, you know, part of it is, you know, again, when you look at those demographic shifts, it's just, you have more people in a poor economy. And so that obviously, before that, it was, you know, less people working and more jobs. But I think, you know, to the to the point about this country really supported the availability of affordable housing. And so, you know, if you needed housing support, there were places you could go. And I think as more people were looking and there were fewer units, you know, that that is going to drive the issue. And I think in the same way that the mental health supports never really materialized, you know, I mean, there's debate about the deinstitutional movement. But in general, you know, that was driven by Supreme Court decisions that, you know, people shouldn't be, you know, locked up, really, if they are able to live in less restrictive settings. And so that was kind of a national, it became a really a national policy. But when the funding and the support services don't go with it, you know, the money that we used to put in state hospitals, it's not like it was reallocated to the community, even as they were shutting down and closing a lot of those hospitals or part of them and having less beds available. So there was kind of a, you know, a shift in how we would approach it without necessarily shifting those resources.
[00:09:14] Host: You and I, as I mentioned, we're of that same generation where we watched this growth in real time, you know, as opposed to the generations after us, where this has always just been in place. But you talked about when you were 10 years old, the gathering of the blankets, but what was it that that kind of led you down your career path and your research path?
"...we were noticing more and more people on the streets, and of course, in response to that we were opening up shelters, we were doing outreach, we were trying to get people into treatment programs, we were doing a lot of things other than providing them safe, affordable housing."
[00:09:40] Henwood: Yeah, I mean, in full transparency, I don't think as a kid, I was paying much attention to this issue. You know, I just looking back that that's kind of a memory. And I think, you know, a lot of people, because homelessness was not ubiquitous, you know, I mean, you might come across the issue or, you know, people living on the streets, but it wasn't sort of an everyday, you know, an occasion. And so, you know, there were efforts to address it. But, you know, over time, it sort of just got worse and worse and worse. And I won't jump to the present day, but you know, like living in California, it's something that people see, regardless of where you live, you're going to come across people who are unhoused now.
"But what happens if they do get access to affordable housing? And the research was striking in that it showed that, upwards of 80 percent of the of the people who are going into housing first could maintain housing stability over time and that the people that were in kind of the treatment first arm, so to speak, you know, less than a third actually ever made it out of homelessness."
I ended up going into social work, in part, because I wanted to be a clinician, a counselor, a therapist. Part of that is because my own experience with therapy and how helpful it was. And I thought, oh, this would, you know, this would be a good profession. And so I enrolled in social work school with the idea of becoming a therapist. But along the way, in a research class taught by my mentor, Deborah Padgett, she was explaining about some of this research on homelessness, and it wasn't so much the homelessness piece that intrigued me, but it was that the solution to it, or what they were finding was working really well, was not the system that evolved in order to address this problem, this crisis that emerged, but was actually sort of flipping that system on its head. And what I mean by that is that, you know, the way, like, as we were talking about, you know, more and more, we were noticing more and more people on the streets, and of course, in response to that we were opening up shelters, we were doing outreach, we were trying to get people into treatment programs, we were doing a lot of things other than providing them safe, affordable housing. And, you know, there was never sort of a decision or a program model that was made. But I think in hindsight, you can look back at, like, what were the assumptions and how did our system develop? And, in hindsight, what we refer to as really there being a staircase or treatment first approach, which the idea is that the reason people were homeless was because there was some issue within them. And if they could fix that, or they could get treatment, or they could remain sober, then they would sort of make it out on their own. And so that was the thing you needed to address. And if you couldn't do that, then, you know, you'd end up back on the streets. And so those individuals never really had access to affordable housing, because it was deemed that they weren't ready. And the research that I came across was about a program that actually flipped that script and said, well, what if we did provide people access to affordable housing, even if they don't want treatment or even if they're not successfully engaged in treatment?
But what happens if they do get access to affordable housing? And the research was striking in that it showed that, upwards of 80 percent of the of the people who are going into housing first could maintain housing stability over time and that the people that were in kind of the treatment first arm, so to speak, you know, less than a third actually ever made it out of homelessness. So it was an interesting finding. And it was doing kind of the opposite of what you thought you should be doing, which is kind of what caught my attention. And it just so happened that that research was I was at NYU at the time, and that research was done in NYU. And so I was introduced to Sam Tsemberis, who started that program and that model and was doing the research. And I ended up just volunteering and doing my social work internship at what we now call Housing First program. So it's not like I sort of decided, hey, I want to look at homelessness. I was really intrigued by this counterintuitive approach that seemed to work. And when I explored it, you know, I actually found the work quite rewarding, you know. And so I don't remember there ever being a decision that this is what I wanted to do. I just liked it. And I kept doing it. And it sort of evolved from an interest in doing it as a social worker to asking more questions and then going back and studying it and getting my doctorate and doing research on Housing First. And that's kind of how I ended up in this work.
[00:14:20] Host: And then publishing a book with your mentor as well.
[00:14:23] Henwood: Yeah, yeah. It's that that was quite, for me, a great experience because, as I mentioned, it was my professor who introduced me to the research and then and then really my first boss in the field who gave me a job doing the work as a clinician and, you know, working with both of them to really try to understand this kind of what really is a remarkable shift where you have a small, you know, individual program that has an evidence base that over a short period of time really was in 2004 is when the first research really came out, establishing that it worked. And within 10 years, Housing First, then what became national policy and how the the U.S. wanted to approach the work. So that doesn't happen often, that sort of, you know, evidence, evidence in foreign policymaking. But this was a case where it did. And and so part of the book was just understanding how did that happen and why like why was it such an anomaly?
[00:15:33] Host: Yeah, you talk about this this treatment first, you know, I know that there were these barriers of entry to housing rules and regulations of like enforced sobriety and having to seek work or be employed, not being able to have guests or romantic partners in your unit. And none of that. I mean, yes, you have a roof over your head, but you it's not a life. Yeah. And so when you're faced with that or the freedom to do whatever you want in an encampment somewhere, that seems like it would be more appealing to follow your freedom. Yeah.
"They were just big buildings with lots of people lined up sleeping next to one another. And I think that version of shelter, one, doesn't give you privacy, but two, also exposes you to the health consequences of being around other people who may be sick. Also, these weren't necessarily safe places. I've heard a lot of people who went to the shelters and either had their stuff stolen, or maybe they were assaulted typically by other people in the shelter, but sometimes by shelter staff."
[00:16:26] Henwood: Yeah. And it's not only that, too. I mean, I think especially, you know, when we talked about shelters emerging, I mean, a lot of these, they were like warehouses. They were just big buildings with lots of people lined up sleeping next to one another. And I think that version of shelter, one, doesn't give you privacy, but two, also exposes you to the health consequences of being around other people who may be sick. Also, these weren't necessarily safe places. I've heard a lot of people who went to the shelters and either had their stuff stolen, or maybe they were assaulted typically by other people in the shelter, but sometimes by shelter staff. I think that there are a lot of really bad experiences with sort of the shelter and homeless service system that, you know, when you get an outreach worker who's saying, hey, you know, why are you out here? Why don't you come into a shelter? They usually had a pretty good reason of why they didn't want to go there. And it's not just that they enjoyed their freedom and wanted to be outside. It's because the alternative that they were given was one that they knew quite well and didn't want any part of. And so I think that's part of what people don't realize. These are actually pretty reasonable, rational decisions to make to sort of remain homeless when the alternative is being in a place that you don't feel safe, that you're sort of told what to do or like you're saying that there are rules and regulations that you simply can't follow. I mean, there are people who are on medication and, you know, have to be out at 8 a.m., but they're too groggy to get up and leave, you know, and so they're just kind of a host of issues that when you're in those sorts of programs or settings makes it quite challenging.
[00:18:26] Host: So when we're looking at housing first and immediate access to affordable housing, what are some of the barriers that are in place for that? Obviously, the first being the lack of affordable housing. But what are some other barriers for entry into a program like that?
[00:18:47] Henwood: Yeah, well, keep in mind, you know, housing first was to some extent designed for people that had serious mental illness and often co-occurring addiction issues. And so like they that was the population who often ended up in the emergency room and or were the ones that everyone said needed treatment. And that's where we're trying to get them to really the proposition that housing first put forward is, you know, why don't we offer people who may be, you know, symptomatic, acutely psychotic using drugs? Why don't we offer them an apartment and provide support services? And when you say it that way, it sounds like a risky proposition. But, you know, the important point of all that was that you weren't just giving them keys to an apartment and saying, good luck. You were, you know, because they were interested in getting off the streets. They wanted someplace safe. They wanted their privacy. And yes, they had lots of issues they were dealing with. But, you know, you might be hearing voices, but that that doesn't mean you can't like live in a in an apartment. Right?
So I think what ended up happening is when you are working with that population, the important point is that, yes, you still need to visit them in their home and see how they're doing and help them navigate challenging situations. But they don't necessarily have to like be in treatment or take medication if they can figure out how, you know, how to navigate things without that. But when you say it that way, there aren't a lot of landlords. If you present it, you know, are you willing to rent to someone who doesn't have much of a credit history or has these other issues? You know, you're going to you're going to get a lot of no's. But if you present it as, you know, these are people who have disabilities and we are here to help provide support. And if you run across any issue, you know, give us a call and we can help you navigate that. That end will guarantee that your rent gets paid on time. That then becomes an appealing, a more appealing proposition. And so, you know, actually, there were plenty of landlords who, when presented with that, were interested in the program. And, you know, keep in mind, these aren't just giving people keys to an apartment that they don't pay for. They you know, they are expected to pay a third of their whatever income they have. Now, obviously, if someone has no income, that a third of zero is still zero. But a lot of people, you know, whether they're on, you know, general relief, they pay a third of that. If they're on disability benefits because they are disabled, then they would pay a third of that. So, you know, there is that expectation that people have a lease or a sublease in the situation we worked in and are responsible to maintain that lease. But they also have adequate support services so that if they're struggling with that, then there's someone they could call. And if the landlord is struggling, there's someone they can call. And that's a really important part of what Housing First has always been about. I think sometimes that gets lost in translations where people think Housing First just means here are the keys. You know, that's not really what it was designed to be.
"...when Housing First was developed, again, it was for people with psychiatric disabilities. And the point was they don't really need to be in an institution, but they also if you don't provide them support, they're more likely to end up on the streets. The idea was and this really comes from a psychiatric rehabilitation perspective, which is give people opportunities to live in normalized settings and provide them adequate support, and then they can recover from whatever illness they have and develop a life that that they deem worthwhile and important to them."
[00:22:06] Host: Here in L.A. and all around California, we've built these tiny home communities in different areas. We've taken hotels and open up some of the rooms for permanent housing opportunities. But is this just kind of a Band-Aid on an arterial wound in terms of what is needed for programs like Housing First?
[00:22:32] Henwood: Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question and an important one. And I think, again, I just want of come back to when Housing First was developed, again, it was for people with psychiatric disabilities. And the point was they don't really need to be in an institution, but they also if you don't provide them support, they're more likely to end up on the streets. The idea was and this really comes from a psychiatric rehabilitation perspective, which is give people opportunities to live in normalized settings and provide them adequate support, and then they can recover from whatever illness they have and develop a life that that they deem worthwhile and important to them. And so it really, to some extent, was much more of a, you know, a treatment approach, so to speak. It really was focused on housing as foundational to it and their services. Somewhere along the way, Housing First went from, you know, sort of part of the mental health system to an approach to homelessness. And, you know, when that happened, I think that's a much different perspective because you're no longer, you know, worried about how is this person doing? Are they recovering? Are they doing well? It's really are they off the streets? And that's our main goal. And when you think of it that way, then all of a sudden these other alternatives like, oh, well, what if we do a tiny home or, you know, start to become how we think about the issue? But, you know, at the end of the day, if you're providing these options that, you know, don't provide people sort of a space that they feel comfortable, safe and, you know, can live out their life, then they're not going to they're not going to stay there. And so, you know, there are plenty of tiny homes that work well. But the way we use tiny homes is much more as a different kind of shelter. So we talked about these big warehousing and, you know, I think everyone recognized that didn't work too well and people didn't want to go to those. And so tiny homes do have some, you know, they offer more privacy and a place to go. But, you know, for a lot of people, they might just use it to store their stuff and they still don't feel comfortable like living there. So it really depends on, like, what you think the problem is you're trying to solve and how, like, acceptable that proposed solution is to people. You know, so I think when you put it that way, it's much different than what Housing First was developed to be. And as a homelessness response, you know, it can be effective, but it's still, you know, what's the main goal? And that's an important way to think about it, I think.
[00:25:27] Host: So then we talk about affordable housing and it's mentioned and you brought up the fact that there are those who can't even afford that third, who are barely able to afford food. And I know that there are systems in place, but if they don't know about those systems, like if there's that lack of knowledge, what are the solutions for them?
[00:25:58] Henwood: The truth is there isn't a solution for everyone. I mean, the way we're set up now, right. And some people, you know, equate it to I have colleagues that talk about it being, you know, sort of a, you know, a game of musical chairs. And you know that if there are only eight chairs and 10 people, they're going to be two people, you know, without a place to sit. And of course, what that means is if there's not enough affordable housing and places for people to go, we're going to have the problem of homelessness. Right. So that that's sort of like almost by definition. And so then it just becomes this issue of as a society, do we want there to be enough housing for people or not? And if it's if it's not there, it's not there. You can't, you know, no amount of treatment or, you know, tiny homes will make up for that. And so now the question of who becomes homeless is a different question. And often people who struggle, who are disabled, you know, who, you know, struggle with addiction, you know, they're more likely to end up homeless. So I think that, you know, those it's important to distinguish between, you know, who ends up homeless and why do we have homelessness as a problem? So that's an important point.
But even before we get there, we know that there are a lot of people who can’t afford housing. And there are programs in the United States. And I think, you know, we may have talked about the Section 8 program, which, you know, was set up in order to provide rental subsidies for people who don't earn enough to afford housing. And it's a, you know, to some extent, it's a really effective program and it allows people who are living in poverty to be able to pay their rent and have a place to live. To that extent, it's a good program. But we also know it's not an entitlement, right? So like food stamps is an entitlement, meaning in this country, we've decided if you can't afford food, we will provide some amount of food stamps that you can use in order to not go hungry. So that's an entitlement. Anyone who qualifies will get it. But Section 8 is not like that. So you could qualify and you get put on a wait list. But if you get it, it really depends on if there's enough funding for the program. And it's , you know, really been underfunded for decades at this point. And so only one out of four people who applies and is eligible for Section 8 will ever get it. So we kind of know that there are millions of households in this country that on paper can afford housing, qualify for assistance. But because our elected representatives have not put funding towards that program, they're not going to get that support. And so that puts those families in a in a tough spot. And, you know, not all of them will end up homeless, of course, because they can lean on relatives or friends or just, you know, have some sort of setup that might work for them. But some portion of them will end up homeless. And again, you know, if we had more, you know, if we made Section 8 an entitlement, then, you know, you wouldn't see that there's still other issues to address the idea.
[00:29:24] Host: And there's a challenge too with, you know, half of our political spectrum that opposes social welfare funding and free handouts and have that belief of pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. And, you know, that's more of like an ideological challenge. And I don't know how you cross that barrier.
[00:29:52] Henwood: Yeah, right. I mean, look, you know, people's politics differ on this. I mean, I think it is important to note that, like, you know, clearly our sort of tax structure is set up, you know, to provide incentives for different people. And so, you know, there are plenty of people who get breaks, you know, and get subsidies and, you know, and to me, it's interesting that, you know, our government has done a lot over the years to provide housing subsidies. But they often go to people who already can afford housing. And so, like, we might be incentivizing home ownership. And so we give people tax breaks if they buy a house and, you know, need a mortgage. And so we give them favorable tax treatment. But I think that's in part because, you know, politically they're considered deserving and worthy of that. And it advances the goal of promoting home ownership. I think most people would say we don't want homelessness. I think the rub is we sort of think we've decided that the people who end up homelessness really aren't worthy of that sort of same help and support that other people are. And so, you know, we've made decisions not to not to fully fund Section 8 or build more affordable housing or, you know, so, to me, I think you're right. It is a question of like who deserves government support. It's not whether the government can help or not. Like, clearly, there are responses to homelessness that that could address this issue. But I think we've just made the political decisions not to pursue them at the scale that's needed.
[00:31:37] Host: Is there a gap in knowledge with some of the homeless population of just not knowing what's available, not knowing what systems of support or relief that is available to them?
[00:31:53] Henwood: Yeah. I mean, so two things, because I think clearly, you know, we see in our own data that there are plenty of people that, you know, that are disabled and probably would qualify for income support because they're disabled. But that requires, you know, going to the Social Security Administration, presenting all your medical records to show that like it really would be quite challenging for you to be self-sufficient because, you know, you're not able to have gainful employment. And so, there are clearly people that would be better off if they were aware and knew how to navigate that and could get disability benefits and they'd be in a better position to afford housing. So there are clearly issues like that. I think the point I was trying to make earlier is that's all true. But also, let's just be clear eyed about the fact that there is just scarcity. And right. And so even if people accessed all the programs that they were entitled to, we'd still have this problem because there are just scarce resources and meaning there's not enough affordable housing options for people, even if they got the income support or were working. So, you know, I think that's an important point to just distinguish, you know, between people not being able to navigate complex systems. And that is definitely true. And, you know, there are ways to kind of address that. But I think what we often don't want to talk about is the fact that, like, no, there's no way to sort of innovate our way out of the problem. There is just sort of back to the musical chair. There is a numbers game here. And unless we're really willing to look at that, it's not clear to me that you're ever going to have a good solution.
"If you were walking down your street and your neighbor was passed out on the on the ground, you'd call for help right away. But in L.A., you pass people all the time that are sleeping on the streets and we sort of become numb to it a little bit. And so I think part of it is just realizing that these are people who are suffering. And even if we can't solve homelessness for them, we can still acknowledge them, say hello to them, offer whatever sort of help we can..."
[00:33:47] Host: Is there when talking about scarcity, is there a human infrastructure scarcity when it comes to social workers and kind of those people who could support and educate and help this movement or these individuals? Is that an issue as well?
[00:34:13] Henwood: It is an issue. But you know, what comes to mind is there are sort of three different buckets that I think of. And like you brought up, like, is there a scarcity of social workers or people in the behavioral health system that can help? And that is true. Like we know that there's nursing shortages and behavioral health counseling shortages. And so which has even been exacerbated by recent developments in terms of like, are these professions and can people get loans to go to school for these professions? So we're making it more complicated as we speak. But, yeah, there are shortages. And so that makes the work hard. But I would also say, you know, there's a different sort of way to think about it. And one of the things we've been looking at is, you know, there are a lot of like faith based communities out there that have a lot of assets, meaning we want to help our neighbors. A lot of faith communities actually have a lot of land, too, that they could that could be developed and provide affordable housing for people who need it.
But I think to your point, you know, there's a lot of human resources there that I think could be used to help welcome people, you know, back into community. But I think that kind of gets me to the third, which is just the general population. You know, even if there is scarcity and we're not able to solve the problem, I mean, one of the hooks for me was, early on, knowing that just being able to acknowledge and see people as people is really important and healing. And a lot of people experience homelessness. And this is just, you know, it's a reaction that I think on the public is, you know, we tend to look past them. If you were walking down your street and your neighbor was passed out on the on the ground, you'd call for help right away. But in L.A., you pass people all the time that are sleeping on the streets and we sort of become numb to it a little bit. And so I think part of it is just realizing that these are people who are suffering. And even if we can't solve homelessness for them, we can still acknowledge them, say hello to them, offer whatever sort of help we can within everyone's got their own limits. But I think sort of turning away from the problem just makes it worse. And so I talk to my own kids about that and I think they get it. I mean, kids actually get this, I think, easier than a lot of adults that it's that, you know, it is important just to say hello or, you know, whatever help you can offer, you do it. But I know, you know, there's a lot of stigma and a lot of, you know, just feelings about the population that can make that human connection a bit challenging.
[00:37:05] Host: So aside from that acknowledgement, you know, offering food and water when you see somebody in need, what else can we do as citizens to kind of move this needle and create change?
[00:37:26] Henwood: Yeah, I think there's a lot that can be done. I think just where I am personally on the topic, I think the biggest thing that we need to do is just realize, like, this is an issue that could be addressed if we had different policies and if our elected officials made different decisions, if they funded the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development at a scale that could actually address the problem. And that's just not happening. And I think, you know, the people who suffer are really not the ones that have much political power. And so I think until we kind of demand that of our elected officials, that we're never going to change those policies. And, you know, there are always tradeoffs and, you know, where you spend your money. But this country spends a very small fraction, whether you look at the federal level, at the state level, you know, we're talking like less than one percent of our budgets go to this issue and to affordable housing. And so, you know, I'm not saying we should spend half our tax dollars on addressing the issue. But, you know, if we went from point five percent to like two percent or three percent of the federal budget, like we could actually solve this problem. And I think to me, most people don't realize that. And yes, in like absolute terms, it's a lot more money. You know, it's many billions of dollars. But in relative terms, it's quite a small amount of money compared to what this country spends. So, you know, I don't want to say that that's the only way you can contribute. But I think being aware that there are different decisions that can be made and to demand that our elected officials address this issue and make better decisions that can actually solve the problem to me is what's needed.
[00:39:27] Host: We'd like to thank Benjamin Henwood and the USC Suzanne Dvorak-Peck School of Social Work. If you'd like to continue the conversation, visit chapman.edu/Wilkinson to learn more. To access recommended books from our guests for further learning and for more socially conscious content, visit us at PastForward.org or follow us at Apple, Spotify or wherever you podcast.
